I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby shawna » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:03 pm

HalloweenWeed wrote:And why is it that the blacks can have the NAACP, but when the whites create a racist organization such as the NAACP it is labeled nazi, or evil. Again, this is racist against white ppls. I submit that the racism trend has swung fully the other direction, against whites now. And if we say anything about it, we are labeled "white supremists"! Unfair.


No matter how racist you think everyone is against whites now, whites still have the upper hand in pretty much every segment of society. Whites are still more likely to have the resources to go to college, be hired for a job, oftentimes get paid more, and are even more likely to be approved for a home loan (even with the same credit history as someone of another race). So complain all you want about how we are being judged by other races, but you can't complain about any serious effects of it like any other suppressed race can. Whites still, almost always, have the advantage in our society.

Furthermore, I think it's much different for a group of suppressed people to create a group to help each other out of a horrible situation. The NAACP was founded to help black people get past the racism that was holding them back, most of which came from white people. Interestingly enough, it wasn't a black-only group, it was a multi-racial group; it was a group of people with a common goal - to help black people gain equal rights. They had to ban together in order to make any real progress. Why would we need such a group? I'd say we have plenty of groups that are white-only, they're just not openly advertised as such. I guess it's all in the reason behind the group. The NAACP was not founded as a black-only, "we don't want any whites in our organization because they're assholes" kind of group, it was created with a very positive goal in mind, and really, anyone who shared that goal could help. White people would not need such a group in today's world. But if you want to create a white-only group just because you have a negative image of any other race who might join, that's something totally different from groups such as the NAACP, and it would truly be white supremacy.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby willow » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 pm

Hmmm... well as a white male between 18-25 the whole world apparently should be sucking my dick right now. Its not. I have a shitty job, no post secondary education and I live in a city where white people are edging on being a minority. I dont really think this is a problem, people are people and I am probably one of the loudest pro multiculturalism supporters on the board, but it becomes one when people continue to think that the "white man" has it so easy.

Even women (white or otherwise) are considered a specialty class due to gender and receive various forms of additional support across the whole of society from rape relief centers and womans only gyms to womens only medical centers, skills building courses, support programs and shelters, which males are not entitled to (often to ensure that the women feel "safe"). Any programs open to males almost automatically become available to women in an attempt to avoid the claim of sexism.

If your gay, you also get various programs and support services in the local community here as well as protected status under the law through anti-discrimination and anti-hate speech legislation.

There are grants and bursaries galore for post secondary education for minority groups all of which I am excluded from applying for because I'm white. My only options are expensive student loans.

Its something I used to hear a lot from some of the native communities around Chilliwack, my old home town. Its a rather small place some 60-70k people and a good portion of them are Natives. With all due respect to the hardships that were inflicted on them during the colonization and residential school systems etc there is no excuse for the kind of lazy self entitlement I used to encounter from my Native peers.
"I dont have to pay taxes, thats my right"
"This is our land your living on"
"Your the immigrants"
Hell, I even had one kid tell me to go back to Europe and my family has been in Canada for 400 years

I'm not trying to pick on any one minority, but the opportunities economic, social and educational that they received in the community are identical to ours. they go to the same schools, with the same teachers, take the same tests and use the same recreational and medical facilities. They get hired at the same companies we do and get paid the same wages and yet somehow as a White Male,I am responsible for the poor socieo economic situation on the native reserves where the majority of them CHOOSE to live in the lower mainland. I am responseible for the high rates of alcoholism and drug abuse as well as gang violence. This I have a problem with. Its so easy for minorities today to point to the white man and say "thats the cause of all our problems" many minorites often jump straight to claims of discrimination when they meet opposition reguardless of if there was any attempt to discriminate.

Sadly there are three widely accepted and socially acceptable stereotypes for white males, we are all racist, violent and mysoginistic. As a society we act as though all three claims were true.

Three stories:
While visiting my dad in Calgary a few months back he recounted a tale of how as a security guard he was accused of racism from a member of a minority who was causing a disturbance and being a "white male" the claim of racism was almost instantly given credit and he found himself defending himself from a baseless charge. It reminds me of the "driving while black" complaint.

My cousin works for a major shipping company at one of there hub locations.... we will call them SPU. Every month the union has a minorities meeting for the office staff who are part of visable minorities to discuss minority issues in the office etc. The irony is that my cousin and another man are the ONLY white people in the entire office dept (making them effectively a minority) yet they are excluded from these meetings because they are white, thus not a recognized minority group.

I took a phone call for a bill payment kiosk called "Tio" (a former client of our call center) and spoke with a black woman from Georgia. Because I couldnt make the kiosk print out a receipt over the telephone for her she called me a "Racist ass cracker mother fucker" and hung up the phone. I must say I am impressed that she didnt see the irony in calling me a cracker while acusing me of racism.

I dont feel the "white guilt" for slavery or residential schools or colonization of the new world, it was long before my time and I have not benifited in any way thats not also available to the minorities around me. I grew up a poor lower class welfare kid with a single parent. My lot in life is just as fucked up as almost any minority in the country.

When people say its a "white mans world" they really mean its a "rich white mans world" the poor white man gets the shaft like every one else.


------------------------------------------
As for the birth rate of immigrants from Latin America, they will recede every generation from the first as birth rate is directly tied to socieo economic status and health care as well as womans rights. Not religion. This is also true for immigration in Europe from poorer nations as well.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby HalloweenWeed » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:15 pm

Well said, willow. I agree 100%.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby shawna » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:41 am

It's 3 a.m. here and I really should be going to sleep, but I saw your reply and just couldn't resist!

willow wrote:Hmmm... well as a white male between 18-25 the whole world apparently should be sucking my dick right now. Its not. I have a shitty job, no post secondary education and I live in a city where white people are edging on being a minority. I dont really think this is a problem, people are people and I am probably one of the loudest pro multiculturalism supporters on the board, but it becomes one when people continue to think that the "white man" has it so easy.


I completely get where you're coming from. That being said, even with your shitty job and no post-secondary education, do you realize you are still many steps ahead of many minorities who are not offered even a shitty job? I am currently taking a class called Social Inequality, and I read the book "Amazing Grace: The Lives of Children and the Conscience of a Nation" by Jonathon Kozol. He wrote it in the 90s but sadly, I don't think too much has changed since then. It talks about the poorest neighborhoods, mainly in New York. The author finds that many neighborhoods are more segregated nowadays than they were before the civil rights movement. Many schools in these neighborhoods may have only one (if any) white student. The nicer hospitals will not accept patients from the poor neighborhoods. In many of my college courses on similar subject matter, I have learned of countless studies that show that white people, simply because of their race, are given opportunities that other races (especially black people) are not given. Have you heard of the practice in the real estate and mortgage industries whereby each neighborhood is designated green, blue, yellow, or red. When a black person would apply for a loan in a green zone, they would automatically be denied because this was an all-white neighborhood; if a black family moved in, the property values would decrease. This was practiced by the government - the FHA - and is still evident today. Here's a Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining# ... ary_issues.

Here's another study I read about recently, that shows the racial profiling in linguistics that is still present in today's society:

http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/6500.html

A great book to read on such issues is "Race, Class, and Gender in the United States". I'm currently making my way through it. It's amazing to learn about the type of discrimination that people endure in today's supposedly "open-minded" and "equal" society.

Whether you realize it or not, you have privileges that many people of other races (and women) don't have. You just do. Being a man, and being white, gives you more opportunities, no matter your social class.

willow wrote: Even women (white or otherwise) are considered a specialty class due to gender and receive various forms of additional support across the whole of society from rape relief centers and womans only gyms to womens only medical centers, skills building courses, support programs and shelters, which males are not entitled to (often to ensure that the women feel "safe"). Any programs open to males almost automatically become available to women in an attempt to avoid the claim of sexism.

If your gay, you also get various programs and support services in the local community here as well as protected status under the law through anti-discrimination and anti-hate speech legislation.

There are grants and bursaries galore for post secondary education for minority groups all of which I am excluded from applying for because I'm white. My only options are expensive student loans.


I don't know if you quite understand the meaning of these programs that are for minorities. It's not as though everyone in society is on a level playing field and these programs are meant to elevate minorities, leaving white people behind. The minorities in our country have many fewer opportunities, and are suppressed in many ways. These programs that are created for them are to help them be afforded the same opportunities as the majority. So if straight, white men had scholarships based on their race, sexuality, and sex, wouldn't that be a way of helping them to advance even further ahead of those who are already behind? What would be fair about that?

willow wrote:Hell, I even had one kid tell me to go back to Europe and my family has been in Canada for 400 years.


I do agree with you that the white people of today's world are not the ones who are responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago. But I do think we still need to be sensitive to the struggle that minorities still endure which because of the actions of our ancestors so long ago. It just seems like a never-ending cycle, and one that's incredibly hard to break free of, but we do seem to be making some slow progress. But a bit of progress does not at all mean that everyone is equal and minorities no longer need or deserve programs that help them to have opportunities that the majority does. Minorities are still very much discriminated against in today's society. It might be hard to sympathize with it or even feel the reality of it, but that doesn't make it not true.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby willow » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:58 am

To keep it short, I agree with you almost completely Shawna.
I recognize the purpose of these programs and with the exception of several "womans only" programs that are blatently sexist I generally agree with and support them. I dont oppose affirmative action for example in educational placements if only because "ethnic diversity" is important, and because the first born children of affluent families have a disporportionate representation in post secondary insititutions. I was not really complaining about the existance of such programs, rather that while they exist and while people take advantage of them they continue to complain about their percieved lack of opportunities and how they are repressed by the "white man" in society who has "all the breaks".

Blind auditions for symphonies and orchestras to minimize sexism also come to mind. Its a valid use and serves to remove the implicit pro male bias in selection.

Whether you realize it or not, you have privileges that many people of other races (and women) don't have. You just do. Being a man, and being white, gives you more opportunities, no matter your social class.


The fact of the matter is that many minority groups around here DO have more opportunities afforded to them then I do. I could technically get my Metis status (French and Native) thus qualifying me for minority status, this would instantly entitle me to apply for several of those grants and bursaries I was talking about, several other cultural programs and what not as well as providing me minority status when applying for admittance to post secondaries, RCMP, military, or trades schools, increasing my chances for enrollment. I choose not to take advantage of these opportunites because I feel using the minority status just for personal gain while not identifying in any way with said community or culture would be unethical and shallow. Im keep having to convince myself Im right about this because the several thousand dollars for post secondary education is really really tempting. Of course then I wouldnt be "the white man" anymore :P

I realize that migrants and some minorities dont have an easy time in Canada, facing numerous challanges that I dont have to deal with. Issues of learning a second language(I think the government should fund free ESL programs for new immigrants), accents, culture shock, educational institution equivelancy etc. but that was beside my point. The single largest factor in determining your quality of life is the soceo economic status of your parents. If your parents are moderately well off, then you will have a much greater chance of attending post secondary education, obtaining a good job, maintaining good health, managing your own finances, religiosity, healthy eating etc and becoming moderately well off yourself. The income levels of your parents are far more important then even your race or ethnicity. Its a factor that should be covered I would think at length in the books your reading (upward mobility, ecomonic status and <insert social issue here>). Poor white kids in the same neighbourhood as the poor black children often do just as poorly in life and I cant think of a single "opportunity" which I have had in life which was not also available to the minorites I grew up around. I can however think of several which the more wealthy students had, as well as a few available just to minorities.

Im sure there are aspects of this I am missing not being an American, we take a different view culturally to minorities here then in the US. We also lack the dubious history with widespread slavery which really complicates black/white relations in the US. I have heard of the idea of minorities lowering property values but was unaware the US had a coded system for example. Our hospitals are not allowed to refuse service in the same manner and, our public schools dont allocate funding based on standardized test scores either, so we have less "poor inner city schools" to deal with, although many in our smaller rural communities are seriously under funded.


My experience is largely with our first nations communites (Natives) and the large Asian/Indian population. I know of many many other kinds of unintentional bias though, a recent study showing that having a foreign last name makes one less likely to be hired then a traditional western name comes to mind (and reminds me of your linguistic profiling link). The local media picked up on the study and there were letters to the paper and a few people interviewed by the local media calling this blatent racism, whites favouring whites, and expressing the hard time they have had being Chinese or Indian and finding a job. The city is 30% Chinese with several thousand Chinese owned buisnesses and large Asian communities, so I cant think they are opposed to hiring people with Asian names. The study did make me wonder though, what about my last name? Its long, German and many people have a hard time pronouncing it. Or slavic names from Eastern European countries like Poland or Russia. We are white and most likely suffer from the same bias. John Smith or Jaswinder Singh, Victor Miller or Vasilli Mitrokin?

You can point to the study and infer a natural bias against minorities but its about as valid a claim as the natural bias in favour of physically attractive people (I'm not saying there is no bias, or that it doesnt negatively affect people). There are numerous studies that show that being physically attractive makes the social interactions in your life from finding a job, renting an apartment, interviews of any kind, to avoiding traffic tickets much easier then the rest of us. Everyone knows "that girl" who goes through life without lifting a finger just because she is pretty. Guys buy them drinks and jewels, pay there bills, take them out etc (I knew a woman once who used to go to the bar broke every weekend and came home drunk every weekend on free drinks). The pretty people even have there own exclusive dating service now where members rank you and if your not good looking enough you cannot join. We do not however hold back the pretty or lift up the ugly in order to equalize the imbalance.

Darkest Rain posted a link in the Martin Luther King Jr thread a little while back which explained that as he neared the end of his life MLK concluded that without eliminating the poverty that was so wide spread in the black and minorities communities they would never reach social equality, reguardless of there status under the law. I agree with the sentiment whole hartedly.

If you want to aid minority communities you need to address the causes of poverty in those communities. Namely: education, healthcare, shelter and food. The Obama healthcare plan would greatly aid the nations poorest and millions of minorites accross the US by essentially eliminating the bulk of the medical expenses that prevent them from receiving preventitive care. Additional educational funding for failing schools to address there shortfals rather then continuing to punish them for high numbers of failing students. Affordable housing that is livable, not the usual residential slums the poor are relegated to etc(The homeless in Vancouver are disproportionately white males). Community centers and outreach programs targeted at males between 15-25 as those are the ages where youth generally are most criminally active. A minimum wage tied to inflation etc.

A favourite saying of mine "Money cant buy happyness, but it does buy opportunity"
wow this is getting way longer then I wanted or expected >.< sorry for the long windedness guys, I have been bored lately.

Shawna, thanks for the response :D and have you perhaps seen the video from those justice lectures I posted on equality and "the veil of ignorance" from Rawls? It ties in directly with your arguments and you would probably like it.

also are you familiar with the Reagan "welfare queen"
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby H3RM3S78 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:37 pm

willow wrote:Blind auditions for symphonies and orchestras to minimize sexism also come to mind. Its a valid use and serves to remove the implicit pro male bias in selection.

I don't know if you meant that litteraly or as a figure of speech (must be a figure of speech), but there isn't a problem with sexism in symphonic music. Just YT any symphonic clip at all and you'll see that all those long haired ppl are not male hippies, but indeed women. And none of them had to take their shirts off either.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby willow » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:54 am

The problem is perhaps more wide spread in some areas or others, but it seems that there is a pronounced pro male bias in selection for placements and auditions for seats.
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml
The issue has been marginalized by the use of blind auditions where the musician plays behind a screen or some other device so the interviewer cannot establish gender.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby shawna » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:40 pm

willow wrote:
The income levels of your parents are far more important then even your race or ethnicity. Its a factor that should be covered I would think at length in the books your reading (upward mobility, ecomonic status and <insert social issue here>). Poor white kids in the same neighbourhood as the poor black children often do just as poorly in life and I cant think of a single "opportunity" which I have had in life which was not also available to the minorites I grew up around. I can however think of several which the more wealthy students had, as well as a few available just to minorities.


I do agree that income level and social class are most important in determining your opportunities in life, but social class does not cancel out racial prejudices, in the United States anyway. For instance, if a white man and a black man who have the same level of education and have the same work experience are go go for the same job interview (or apply for the same loan), the white man is at an advantage because of his race. While not every employer or banker or whoever will judge based on race, many of them still do (and some of them may not even realize that they do).

willow wrote:You can point to the study and infer a natural bias against minorities but its about as valid a claim as the natural bias in favour of physically attractive people (I'm not saying there is no bias, or that it doesnt negatively affect people). There are numerous studies that show that being physically attractive makes the social interactions in your life from finding a job, renting an apartment, interviews of any kind, to avoiding traffic tickets much easier then the rest of us. Everyone knows "that girl" who goes through life without lifting a finger just because she is pretty. Guys buy them drinks and jewels, pay there bills, take them out etc (I knew a woman once who used to go to the bar broke every weekend and came home drunk every weekend on free drinks). The pretty people even have there own exclusive dating service now where members rank you and if your not good looking enough you cannot join. We do not however hold back the pretty or lift up the ugly in order to equalize the imbalance.


Yep, I agree that these types of biases also exist. That does not at all take away from our original discussion of a racial bias, though. It doesn't make racial or gender discrimination any less important or real.

I think as far as judgments on beauty are concerned, though, it's a much more subjective area, so it's harder to recognize and contain. With race and gender, there are very obvious, straightforward biases, and that's why we can recognize them and make an effort to stop them. We can't really "hold back the pretty" or "lift up the ugly" because, really, who would determine who the "pretty" and "ugly" ones are? If it were left up to my husband and I, we would have two completely different social structures (we have SUCH different taste in who is beautiful)!

willow wrote:
If you want to aid minority communities you need to address the causes of poverty in those communities. Namely: education, healthcare, shelter and food. The Obama healthcare plan would greatly aid the nations poorest and millions of minorites accross the US by essentially eliminating the bulk of the medical expenses that prevent them from receiving preventitive care. Additional educational funding for failing schools to address there shortfals rather then continuing to punish them for high numbers of failing students. Affordable housing that is livable, not the usual residential slums the poor are relegated to etc(The homeless in Vancouver are disproportionately white males). Community centers and outreach programs targeted at males between 15-25 as those are the ages where youth generally are most criminally active. A minimum wage tied to inflation etc.



I think that in order to address the problems of poverty, we have to start with government policies, as you seem to be saying. The poorest areas are neglected by the government. I am not completely sold on Obama's health care plan; I really think we need to have universal coverage like every other industrialized nation.

willow wrote:Shawna, thanks for the response :D and have you perhaps seen the video from those justice lectures I posted on equality and "the veil of ignorance" from Rawls? It ties in directly with your arguments and you would probably like it.


I did study Rawls' theories last semester, I think in my Bioethics course. While it would be great to have a "veil of ignorance" in today's world, it's just not really possible and that's why his idea is completely hypothetical. We humans will always judge others on appearance, but I just wish we could recognize when these judgments are completely out-of-date, useless, and harmful to society.

willow wrote:also are you familiar with the Reagan "welfare queen"


Nope, but I will sure look it up.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby HalloweenWeed » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:09 pm

shawna wrote:do you realize you are still many steps ahead of many minorities who are not offered even a shitty job?

Even white ppl have trouble getting jobs, you think it is easy for us? Not even in the slightest. You just tout this big flag of inequality to lean on, to try to increase your chances of getting a job, and to participate in social bitch sessions with other minorities where you all hold each others hands and say we'll get through this. Well us whites have the same problem, can't find jobs. We also have to hold each others hands and say we'll get through this. It's not a minority problem, so much as a widespread problem across all racial lines. I have been to many areas where you must be latino to get a job. There are places on the north side of Boston where everyone in a business location is Mexican, and has such strong accents that it seems to me at times like they are all speaking Spanish. The pendulum swings both ways. I think perhaps you are just living in a Mexican-depressed area? If so maybe you should move elsewhere.

I haven't worked in two months, tell me about how hard it is to get a job.


Added: BTW latinos are some of the hardest working nose-to-the-grindstone people I've seen.
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Re: I've finally had it, it's time to discuss this problem

Unread postby shawna » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:46 am

HalloweenWeed wrote:Even white ppl have trouble getting jobs, you think it is easy for us? Not even in the slightest.



I'm not at all saying that it's not hard for white people to get jobs. I think that in many cases, though, it's easier for a white person to get a job than for a black or hispanic person. That's just the way things are. So many people are still so prejudice that a white person often (not always) has a better chance at getting a job than someone of another race. But this is not to say that all white people have jobs or can get them, and minorities don't or can't.

HalloweenWeed wrote:
I think perhaps you are just living in a Mexican-depressed area? If so maybe you should move elsewhere.


Not at all. With this economy, everyone is having a tough time finding a job. I'm speaking in general terms, though, not specifically right now and specifically in my neighborhood. I'm saying, right now, in the times we are living in, white people still have an advantage in many cases.

HalloweenWeed wrote:
I haven't worked in two months, tell me about how hard it is to get a job.



I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm always afraid of what would happen if my husband got laid off from his warehouse job. He's been laid off of every other job he's had, I guess because they've all been in this same unstable industry. We would seriously go bankrupt and lose our house within a few months. How are you able to make ends meet? Savings?

HalloweenWeed wrote:
Added: BTW latinos are some of the hardest working nose-to-the-grindstone people I've seen.


Totally agree with you. My husband is Mexican-American, and I'm around his family quite a bit. They are all very hard workers, including my husband. In fact, sometimes I think maybe they work too hard. They really value it, to the point where it interferes with other areas of life. They work so much, so hard that they can't really enjoy life or spend time with their families. But that is in their culture, so I guess I'd better get used to it!
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